Baptist Perspectives On Saddleback Civil Forum

Mark McEntire is an Associate Professor of Religion at Belmont University in Nashville. In his recent column for EthicsDaily.com titled How Fast Can Rick Warren Spin?, McEntire argues that last Saturday's Civil Forum on the Presidency held at Saddleback Church and hosted by the Saddleback Civil Forum (not Saddleback Church) violates the separation of church and state.

McEntire writes:

Let me confess that I believed from the beginning that the so-called "Faith Forum" held on Aug. 16 at the Saddleback Church in California and hosted by its pastor, Rick Warren, was a bad idea.

First, the idea that the two major candidates for president can be summoned to the church of a prominent pastor to kiss his ring and receive his blessing violates both my commitment to the separation of church and state and the kind of communal humility the church ought to demonstrate.

Second, the whole idea of a "faith forum" is a violation of at least the spirit of Article VI of the United States Constitution, which says that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." We have now reached a place in American society where it would be simply impossible for a person who is not a practicing Christian to make a serious run for president, or for lesser offices in most places in our country. Not only must a candidate be a practicing Christian, but he or she must be willing to talk about religious faith endlessly.

Other Baptists were skeptical of the Saddleback forum as well. On his blog, Southern Seminary President Al Mohler wrote:

Suffice it to say that I was not very hopeful about the Saddleback Civil Forum on the Presidency held at the California megachurch last Saturday night. In the first place, I am not really comfortable with the idea of hosting such a politically charged event in a church. No matter how the event is planned and projected, once the event starts it can turn into something far more politically volatile than planned. That is a truth I have learned by hard experience.

Welton Gaddy, another Baptist minister and Executive Director of The Interfaith Alliance, expressed sentiments similar to those of McEntire and Mohler. Gaddy writes:

I approached Rick Warren's Saddleback Civil Forum with much anticipation, but without a clear idea of how he would handle the sensitive issues at the intersection of religion and politics. I believe Pastor Warren set an example of civility that I hope others will follow, but at the same time some of his questions crossed a line that makes this election seem as if we are electing a pastor-in-chief rather than a commander-in-chief.

Meanwhile, Brent Walker - the Executive Director of the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty - offers a different perspective over at Newsweek's ON FAITH religion blog. Walker, an ordained Baptist minister and lawyer writes:

It is good to hear a prominent, evangelical pastor profess his belief in the separation of church and state. I also applaud Rev. Rick Warren's suggestion that separation of church and state does not require a separation of faith and politics. Clearly, there was nothing wrong, as some have suggested, with holding the forum in a church.

Separation of church and state is simply a shorthand expression for the rights guaranteed by Article VI of the Constitution (no religious test for public office) and the First Amendment (no establishment of religion, and no prohibition on the free exercise of religion). What the separation of church and state does not mean is that Americans must - or even should - segregate faith from politics. Nothing in the Constitution or our political culture compels Americans to divorce the moral values born of their religious faith from their decision on which political candidates and policies to support. Answers to questions about a candidate's faith should always be followed up by questions about how that faith will influence governance. Rev. Warren did a pretty good job of doing this throughout the evening.

Southern Baptist layman Charles "Chuck" Colson of the Prison Fellowship ministry seems to concur with Walker. Colson declares that Warren "got Church-State Balance Right." Here is Colson:

Warren stated it exactly right: There's an institutional separation between church and state. But faith and politics deal with the same questions--how we organize our common lives together. And faith's job is to bring moral truth to the exercise of politics.

The forum was a spectacular success. Most believers gained a much better understanding of where the two candidates stand on issues vital to their faith

I absolutely agree with Brent Walker and Rick Warren. Keeping church and state separate does not mean that we need keep faith and politics separate. In our pluralistic democracy, we must understand that religion and politics will mix, must mix and should mix. But we should remember the wise words of Baptist activists for religious liberty like James Dunn who often declared that "mixing politics and religion is inevitable but merging church an state is inexcusable." We should be aware that there exists "A Proper Mix" between religion and politics. Fortunately, that "proper mix" does not require us to "segregate faith from politics" as Walker notes.

I also tend to agree with Welton Gaddy when he notes that some of Rick Warren's questions "crossed a line." The "what does it mean to trust in Christ" question was probably inappropriate for a Presidential forum. However, as Baptist church-state expert Melissa Rogers has noted, "Warren's questions were generally much better than the ones journalists asked at previous candidate forums that were sponsored by religious groups....Generally speaking, those journalists focused on abstract theological questions and rather sensationalistic questions about the candidates' personal religious practices or sins. "

I'll conclude with a great snippet from an op-ed written by Baptist journalist Ruth Ann Dailey of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. Her op-ed can serve as a response to McEntire's claims. Here is Dailey:

One distraught caller to C-Span after the Saturday night forum objected to its entirety, citing Article VI of the Constitution: "No religious test shall ever be required as qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

Her objection is illogical. Rick Warren is not the government, and he invited, rather than forced, the candidates to appear at his church....There's a considerable distance between a religious test for public office and a voter's inspection of a candidate. As the Rev. Warren said weeks before the event, "I believe in the separation of church and state, but I do not believe in the separation of faith and politics, because faith is simply a worldview, and everybody's got a worldview."

Anguished by the bitter church-state battles of my lifetime, I am grateful for Rick Warren's achievement. From the wall of separation's creation more than 350 years ago to its careful tending Saturday night, the Baptist tradition of the inviolability of the individual conscience has served the nation imperfectly, but well.

Southern Baptist Pastor Caught Plagiarizing

A Southern Baptist pastor named Dr. Samuel Krouse from California has been caught plagiarizing excerpts from Al Mohler's new book titled Atheism Remix in an op-ed published by the Colusa County Sun Herald.  It appears the Southern Baptist pastor must be a reader of Mohler's blog!  Large portions of the pastor's op-ed appear to have been lifted directly from Mohler's August 8 entry.

Check that out here at the blog, Friendly Atheist.

A few bloggers have pointed out this rather ironic plagiarized line from Krouse's op-ed:

Then, as now, the task is to articulate, communicate, and defend the Christian faith with intellectual integrity and evangelistic urgency.

HT: Howie Luvzus

Al Mohler Burns Down Atheist Straw Man

From Jeffrey Weiss of the Dallas Morning News via the DMN Religion Blog:

"Dr. Albert Mohler, one of the more interesting of Southern Baptist theologians, has a new book upcoming that looks to waste his power on a less-than-robust foe. According to my e-box:

"In his new book, Atheism Remix, Dr. Albert Mohler, president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary examines atheism's surge in popularity."

And yes, there's statistical evidence for a "surge" in people saying they're atheists, in the same way that those "ocean in a bottle" desk doo-dads might contain a tsunami. According to last year's Pew Forum survey, the percentage of Americans who say they're atheists has soared all the way to -- wait for it -- 1.6 percent! And a fifth of those say they believe in some kind of god.

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"

Al Mohler's Rightly Ordered Family

According to Reason magazine, by 2017 women college graduates will outnumber male college graduates by a ratio of 3-to-2. Female students already outnumber male students on college and university campuses across America.

But Al Mohler is not happy. Instead of applauding women who have made a decision to get that diploma, Al asks: Is Matriarchy the Shape of the Future?

Read the article here. Below is a snippet:

Christians committed to a biblical model of marriage and gender relations must look to this social revolution with a deeper level of concern. The most significant concern must be the long-term consequences of a new matriarchal world order. While Christians support the cause of higher education, the biblical worldview puts a higher priority upon the rightly ordered family and church. This dramatic social change will only serve to subvert that purpose.

This paragraph says it all. Not only is Al opposed to women-in-ministry but he's essentially opposed to women in the workplace. Rightly ordered family? What does that mean? Keeping the women barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen? And to think, Time Magazine considers Al to be the "reigning intellectual of the evangelical movement in the U.S."

For those who still claim the tag Southern Baptist - Al Mohler represents the future of the Southern Baptist Convention. And in less than 6 months, Al Mohler will be the new face of the Southern Baptist Convention....

Al Mohler to be Nominated for SBC President

The Southern Baptist Blogosphere has been on fire with this bit of expected news.

DALLAS (BP)--Southern Baptist Theological Seminary President R. Albert Mohler Jr. provides "the kind of visionary leader Southern Baptists need to communicate a missional conservatism and biblical clarity to the world," stated Robert Jeffress, pastor of the historic First Baptist Church of Dallas in announcing his intention to nominate the 47-year-old Mohler for Southern Baptist Convention president in June....

"When Southern Seminary seemed to be lost to liberalism and irrelevancy, Dr. Mohler put his life and ministry on the line for the truth of God's word and the urgency of sharing Christ with a lost world," Jeffress said. "Since that time, he has led Southern Seminary to be a boot camp for young men and women training to take the gospel to the nations -- whatever the cost."

Mohler's experience as a spokesman for Southern Baptists in the public square is another reason he should be president of the SBC, Jeffress added, noting the seminary president has been recognized by influential publications such as Time and Christianity Today, with Time calling him the "reigning intellectual of the evangelical movement in the U.S."

Meanwhile, the first full-length book written by America's "reigning intellectual of the evangelical movement" is set to hit the shelves of your local Lifeway Christian bookstore on January 15. Published by Multnomah Press, Culture Shift: Engaging Current Issues With Timeless Truth is described by Timothy George of Beeson Divinity School as a "manifesto for responsible Christian engagement." With chapters on faith and politics, the Supreme Court, Christian parents and public schools and abortion, I suspect, however, that readers will find little new material that has not already been covered by Mohler on his blog and other op-eds.

Bush The Universalist

That's the title of Terry Mattingly's latest post over at GetReligion.

Mattingly writes:

The media have written extensively, if poorly, about Bush’s faith. There was that New York Times Sunday Magazine cover story about Bush’s faith. And countless others which we’ve all read over the past decade.

And yet when President Bush celebrates other religions or otherwise expresses his universalism — which he has done repeatedly — the media barely notice. In an Oct. 4 interview with Al Arabiya, President Bush said

Well, first of all, I believe in an almighty God, and I believe that all the world, whether they be Muslim, Christian, or any other religion, prays to the same God. That’s what I believe. I believe that Islam is a great religion that preaches peace.

Mattingly wonders if the media ignores Bush's universalism (pluralism?) "because it doesn't fit with their preconceived notion of Bush as an evangelical extremist."

Fascinating stuff, check it out.

Back in late July, I wrote a post entitled Universalist Addresses Southern Baptist Convention.

What amazes me (well, not really) is the way Southern Baptist leaders treat Presidents when they talk theology. Jimmy Carter gets labeled a heretic by Al Mohler & Company. Yet, folks like Richard Land give Bush's unambiguous theological statements a pass. After Bush's interview with Charlie Gibson back in 2003, Richard told Baptist Press that the President was "simply mistaken" and that "we should always remember that he is commander in chief, not theologian in chief." Instead of calling Bush a heretic - Southern Baptists invite him to speak year after year to their annual meeting!

Ah the inconsistency of fundamentalists....

Universalist Addresses Southern Baptist Convention

Barely two months ago, Rev. Wade Burleson caught hell for his decision to meet with President Jimmy Carter and other organizers of the New Baptist Covenant. The Baptist Blogosphere was flooded with allegations that President Carter was a Universalist - one who believes that all will be saved and spared from hell. Suffice it to say, Carter got kicked around pretty good by his fellow Baptist-brethren for a week or so. Al Mohler even took the time to opine. This internet saga culminated with a thoughtful EthicsDaily op-ed penned by Brian Kaylor entitled Jimmy Carter Is Not The Anti-Christ.

Since his election in 2000, President George W. Bush has addressed the Annual Meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention almost every year usually live via satellite. A "born-again evangelical Christian," President Bush has also been a fan favorite among Southern Baptists and their leaders. Richard Land loves Dubya. Heck, Southern Baptists love Dubya so much that their publishing arm has printed a Bible that includes George W. Bush quotes!

Bush may be born-again and I have no reason to doubt that his faith in Jesus Christ is genuine. But dangit, he's a Universalist! Check out the video from just days before the 2004 election:

Charlie Gibson: Do we all worship the same God, Christians and Muslims?

President Bush: I think we do. We have different routes of getting to the Almighty.

Charlie Gibson: Do Christians and non-Christians, do Muslims go to heaven in your mind?

President Bush: Yes, they do. We have different routes of getting there.

Did I mention that Bush addressed Southern Baptist messengers just a month ago?

Meanwhile, Southern Baptist bloggers and leaders will continue to allege, accuse, moan, and groan each and every time these two words are uttered.........Jimmy Carter.

A Tribute to Al Mohler & Other Young Earthers

Al Mohler Gives SBC The Finger

Straight from the Annual Meeting of the SBC in San Antone, Wade Burleson writes...

These four men, led by Dr. Mohler today, gave to our convention the proverbial finger and said, "We do not care that you have told us the Baptist Faith and Message is the only consensus confession of the Southern Baptist Convention and is sufficient to guide us. We will draft any confessional statement, policy or guideline we desire because the hiring of seminary professors is critical to the future health of the SBC and the Baptist Faith and Message 'does not say enough' doctrinally to give us good hiring policies and guidelines."

Paige Patterson has already recommended to friends the disbanding of the SBC Executive Committee. Chuck Kelley said last night the adoption of the Executive Statement would have no effect on his institution and Richard Land has already angrily chastized two gracious SBC theologians who wrote an excellent book on grace and unity around the essentials and freedom in diversity on the nonessentials - a book given to all registered messengers in our SBC packet. These four men might best be considered as the Four Horsemen of the Apocolypse of the Southern Baptist Convention.

Left to Right: Patterson, Mohler, Kelley, Land

Al Mohler, FBC Decatur, and Julie Pennington-Russell

"Gay-baby curing" Al Mohler is the recipient of the highly prestigious Quote of the Day...

Mohler recently wrote...

A look at Julie Pennington-Russell's education, experience, and related qualifications would appear to qualify her for a major pulpit . . . except for the fact that she is a woman.

Yuck. Too bad the 1984 Al Mohler who took out an ad in the Louisville-Courier in support of women in ministry is long gone...

Mohler concludes....

Would the election of Julie Pennington-Russell as pastor of this church make history? Of course it will. This development would set a precedent that, until now, has eluded those pressing for women in major pulpits. First Baptist Church, Decatur, is in the heart of the South, has a proud place in the history of the Southern Baptist Convention, and can claim a legacy of prominent pastors. For a church of this stature to call a woman as senior minister is undeniably historic.

What does this mean? Only time will tell. Advocates for women as pastors will hope to see this precedent followed in other historic moderate pulpits. Any number of factors may play into this equation, including a generational shift and a relatively small number of male seminary graduates from moderate schools headed for the pastorate.

One prediction is an almost certain -- Julie Pennington-Russell will quickly become one of the most prominent leaders among moderate and liberal Baptists.

One additional development is just as certain. This move increases the visible distance between the Southern Baptist Convention and the constellation of moderate Baptist organizations disaffected from the denomination. The distance is theological, cultural, ideological -- and growing.

The Decatur church is set to vote on Pennington-Russell as Senior Minister on June 17. By all accounts, the church is indeed set to make a statement -- and to make history. The distance between those who hold to different positions on the question of women in the pulpit is most evident in the fact that while some will see this move as a triumph, others will see it as tragedy.

Read the entire article here.

Al must not pay close attention to moderate Baptist life anymore. Julie Pennington-Russell is and has been a prominent leader in moderate Baptist life for quite some time. Weeks before being called to FBC Decatur, Pastor Julie was named as a speaker at the upcoming Celebration of the New Baptist Covenant. That's kinda a big deal, Al.

This is much ado about nothing. Through its involvement with the CBF, FBC Decatur has been preaching for years that God actually does call women to preach and pastor. So, how big of a statement is Decatur making now that they've been given an opportunity to practice what they preach?

Oh well.

To me at least, Al Mohler's recent quote is the real tragedy.

Next time he's in the ATL, maybe Brother Al should stop by Decatur for an hour of worship and high quality preaching.....might do him some good.