A Progressive Theo-Political Blog Bringing You The Best and Worst of Baptist Life.

Sunday, April 01, 2007

Dobson Admits Guilt, Changes Mind on Environment

This morning I received a special email from Bob Darden, editor of The Wittenburg Door. Included in the email was an extraordinary statement from Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family - check it out.

Colorado Springs, CO – Dear friends and supporters:

Since my ill-advised attack on my dear friend Dick Cizik a few days ago, I have had an extraordinary week of reflection and spiritual enlightenment. Through the counsel of godly men, such as the Rev. Dr. Jack Hayford, the Rev. Rick Warren, Richard Stearns (President, World Vision), David Neff (Editor, Christianity Today) and other members of The Evangelical Climate Initiative (www.Christiansandclimate.org), I’ve come to see that my assessment of Dick’s motives and, in fact, “global warming,” have been in error as well.

I have been guilty of a particularly pernicious form of short-sighted Dispensationalism, believing that since the earth has no future with the blessed Second Coming nigh, we, as Christians, have no responsibility to care for Creation.

Through loving testimony, instruction and careful study of the Bible with these and other mentors, I no longer believe that Dick is – as I said earlier, much to my regret -- guilty of a “relentless campaign” to save the planet at the expense of what I called more “serious” issues, such as same-sex marriage. I see now that I have strictly
exploited those issues and others like them to manipulate my audience and as a calculated and callous form of fund-raising.

As part of my penance for my unmerited attacks on a courageous, godly man, I have initiated contact with both the Rev. Jerry Falwell and Don Wildmon, with the earnest desire to convince them of the error of their ways as well. While both continue to condemn what they call “earthism worship,” I will continue to pray that this revelation will be made available to them as well.

As for the rest of my penance, I will devote the rest of my career – however long the Lord sees fit to continue in this capacity – to working with my Christian brothers and sisters to insure that all life on the planet, God’s first and greatest gift to us, is protected and cherished.

God bless you all,

Jim Dobson
Focus on the
Family8605 Explorer DriveColorado Springs, CO 809951-800-232-6459www.family.org

68 Comments:

Blogger Streak said...

Funny. Next, I am sure we will see an email from Dobson supporting raising taxes for poverty programs. :)

1:50 PM

 
Blogger Arnie Adkison said...

I got the same email, and I'm convinced it was this year's April Fools joke from the Door.

7:26 PM

 
Blogger Michael Westmoreland-White said...

Is this for real? If it is, I'll post it on my blog, but if it's just an April Fool's joke, I'll pass.

6:29 AM

 
Blogger Kevin Bussey said...

Good for him.

7:12 AM

 
Blogger Big Daddy Weave said...

No No No.

April Fools from the The Door...

8:37 AM

 
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

And the rumors that George W is going to resign and join Al Mohler in a folk singing group calling themselves Dumb and Dumberer and go around trying to bring world peace by chanting and singing Kum ba Yah... just another cruel hoax, as well?

Dang!

8:41 AM

 
Blogger Streak said...

There were several phrases that I believe Dobson incapable of uttering: I have had an extraordinary week of reflection and spiritual enlightenment and my favorite: I have been guilty of...

:)

8:45 AM

 
Blogger Streak said...

I thought the Bush resignation one was the scariest, because the most frightening words in the english language are "President" and "Dick Cheney."

8:46 AM

 
Blogger mom2 said...

I'm sorry to see that your humor is as twisted as some of your views that I read here. Hatred covered up as some kind of supposed intellectual position. There is One that knows the heart.

9:33 AM

 
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

What's an acceptable joke, mom2? The humor here has been pointed, but "twisted?"

9:45 AM

 
Blogger Big Daddy Weave said...

Come on Mom2,

Do you ever laugh? Giggle?

It was after all April Fools Day.

I suspect you've never participated in an April Fools joke.

Twisted? Hatred?

Who do I hate Mom2 since you're all-knowing?

Stop the drive-by's and follow-up with a response for once...

10:21 AM

 
Blogger Big Daddy Weave said...

Dobson clearly knows the heart...

After all Fred Thompson isn't a Christian. Or so Dobson said.

More troubling, Dobson uses the word "Christian" to refer to "evangelical Christians."

The number of Christians in America has just plummeted with the help of the kind Doctor.

10:25 AM

 
Blogger Kevin Bussey said...

Man,

Was I douped! :(

11:01 AM

 
Blogger Larry said...

And Big Daddy Weave has confessed the error of his ways, embraced Fundamentalism, and become an aide to Paige Patterson.

12:05 PM

 
Blogger texasinafrica said...

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. That's the problem with the Door!

3:39 PM

 
Blogger Streak said...

I guess hatred is suggesting that Christians have some responsibility to their environment?

5:09 PM

 
Blogger Michael Westmoreland-White said...

Not to worry, Streak. If W resigned, there'd be ZERO hesitation in impeaching Cheney!

7:19 PM

 
Blogger Jim Paslay said...

big daddy weave,

What I find interesting is not the article but the responses from many of the bloggers. Let's try dan trabue for one:

"And the rumors that George W is going to resign and join Al Mohler in a folk singing group calling themselves Dumb and Dumberer and go around trying to bring world peace by chanting and singing Kum ba Yah... just another cruel hoax, as well"

dan, Dr. Mohler would run circles around you intellectually so why you would call him dumber is beyond me. As for calling our President dumb, let me ask you this, if he were your dad, would you appreciate the name-calling? I don't think so. I'm sure you probably gave our last President before Mr. Bush a pass on his adultery and constant woman-chasing, didn't you? You separated it out that Clinton the President was acceptable even though Clinton the Husband couldn't be trusted!

I would expect this kind of crap from the "Blame America First" crowd at MoveOn.org, but on a Christian website? I am not amused!

10:29 PM

 
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

Ahhh, I see! You're not getting the joke. You see, Mohler is "dumb" and Bush is "dumberer" - now you see?!

Yeah, the thing is, Jim, it was a dumb joke.

I, for one, as a Christian truly despise much of what Mohler stands for. Nonetheless, I acknowledge that he's an intelligent individual.

And you'll notice they were going to bring world peace by chanting and singing kum ba yah, that's a joke against the so-called Do Nothing pacifists who are accused of thinking that if you just join hands and sing together, everything will be all right.

And so, you see, humor was targeting everyone. And now that I've spent several paragraphs dissecting my comment it's even less humorous than the original dumb joke.

So I'll ask again: What's an acceptable joke?

And if my Dad were making the mistakes that our president has taken, I'd be calling him much worse than dumberer.

And it WOULDN'T be because I hate my dad or Bush but because of the horror of the acts.

4:23 AM

 
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

Jim also asked:
"I'm sure you probably gave our last President before Mr. Bush a pass on his adultery and constant woman-chasing, didn't you?"

Actually, no. I truly disliked Clinton as president and as a human being. I thought he should have stepped down from office and, failing that, I thought the Dems should have forced him out (I didn't think an impeachment was called for, though...what he lied about does not raise to the level of "high crimes.")

So, if you're looking for consistency, hopefully you've found it here. And now, will you join me in opposing Bush for his horrible actions?

I know, off topic... Sorry.

4:27 AM

 
Blogger Streak said...

Jim, I was going to ask if you got your talking points faxed from the White House, but as I noted on the other post, you use some that even they have dropped. Now I wonder if you don't get your news entirely from Sean Hannity or perhaps Rush? Moveon.org=blame America first? Ok. I thought the first ones to do that were Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.

Dumb and Dumberer? Now that is funny. But the state of education in our country is no joke, folks. As our President once asked, "Is our children learning?"

:)

6:28 AM

 
Blogger mom2 said...

Actually, no. I truly disliked Clinton as president and as a human being. I thought he should have stepped down from office and, failing that, I thought the Dems should have forced him out (I didn't think an impeachment was called for, though...what he lied about does not raise to the level of "high crimes.")>

Now, Here is the real joke. I'm sure Dan was on a zillion sites telling the world this above sentiment. He sure has been on a lot of sites with hatefulness toward Bush and his policies. I am sure Dan voted (once I hope) and had his voice then and will have his chance to vote again to let his voice be heard. I am a former Democrat, so just forget about the bias comments, but except for Jim all I see here is a group of Democrat worshipers looking for the Messiah in the wrong place.

8:39 AM

 
Blogger Streak said...

I am a former Democrat, so just forget about the bias comments, but except for Jim all I see here is a group of Democrat worshipers looking for the Messiah in the wrong place.

See that strikes me as funny. I am a proud Democrat, but I assume that my politicians will fail me. It has been the Bush followers who have followed what David Kuo called the "Pastor in Chief." I knew Clinton was a sob--he was just my sob, but I elected him to govern, not to preach. Republican Christians seem to see Bush as some extension of God--much as he himself does.

9:33 AM

 
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

Actually mom2, I'm a Green Party member in spirit. I'm registered as a Dem because third parties are not much of an option in this system, but I usually have voted for the Green party candidate in national elections when there was one and occasionally for third party candidates when there wasn't a Green to vote for.

I wasn't blogging or internetting during Clinton's tenure so, no, I didn't write bad stuff about him. I did write several critical letters to the editor, though.

You're forgiven your mistaken assumptions.

9:49 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Al Mohler is a garden-variety bigot and anti-intellectual.

It's kind of funny that people like mom2 are so defensive about any criticism of poor Jim Dobson, that fourth member of the Godhead, but don't ever seem concerned that Dobson (and so many others of his ilk) spends 90% of his time sliming good people. "Wahh, wahhh, it's mean to criticize Dobson, you god-hating, secular humanist abortion-loving, pro-Muslim, traitorous queerbait who is going to spend a zillion years in flaming torment."

10:33 AM

 
Blogger mom2 said...

anonymous, You shouldn't talk about yourself that way. You already have a complex.

10:53 AM

 
Blogger mom2 said...

See that strikes me as funny. I am a proud Democrat,>
I've read a few of your comments and the pride does come through. I would rather come to the defense of James Dobson than Bill Clinton, but I haven't really been doing either. I just find it objectionable to hear such rancor and anger coming from people calling themselves Christians.

11:28 AM

 
Blogger Big Daddy Weave said...

Mom2,

In 1998, I was um 15. I likely was still using Windows 95 and using IRC to illegally download a Foo Fighters song or two with my 56K modem running at 28.8...

Just because we vote Democrat and oppose the Bush Administration (like the majority of Americans, I might add) - doesn't mean we're Democrat worshippers.

Do you watch the news at night? Do you read the newspaper? What about polls? Have you noticed that not many folks still support George Bush the way that you do???

There is a reason for that, you know....

He's just a terrible President...and America agrees.

11:37 AM

 
Blogger mom2 said...

BDW, In 1998 I was already old enough to be your grandmother, so I wasn't born yesterday and I voted Democrat more years than you have lived. I pray for discernment and that is why I no longer vote with the Democrat party. If they were to ever become pro-life and stand for good moral principals, I might again.

11:42 AM

 
Blogger mom2 said...

oops, should have said principles.

11:44 AM

 
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

You know though, mom2, that this is what we'd say about Republicans? We'd love for any party to be truly pro-life (caring about the lives of the born and unborn - for Iraqi fetuses as well as American)! We'd love to find a party that stands for morality!

Speaking only for myself (but I expect I'd hear a big amen around here), I don't find that party to be the Dems but I SURE don't find that party to be the Republicans, either.

As to objecting to rancor and anger coming from Christians, when there are injustices, that is EXACTLY the time for anger and rancor. We ought not mildly sit by while injustices are done in our name. The Bible doesn't tell us not to be angry, but rather, "in your anger, sin not."

There is a time for anger and many of us here think that time is when injustice rears its ugly head. Surely you agree?

11:50 AM

 
Blogger mom2 said...

Dan, I suggest you go back to your church and try some holy anger at some of the unbiblical practices there.
I have seen your circular beliefs in so many places, that I'm really tired of you and I get that sense that I am not alone. You talk in circles and never have an ending place and you take delight in starting feuds. Then comes the innocent act. Your pattern has shown itself over and over.
I'm speaking the truth to you in love, Dan.

12:04 PM

 
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

If so, then mom2, do as I always ask you to do: Point to where I'm "speaking in circles" (whatever that means) and educate me as to how what I'm doing is wrong.

Don't just continually blast me [slander, bear false witness] as some sort of vague sinner but actually HELP me and point to my sin and say "THIS is your sin and here is why it's wrong..."

Please?

12:20 PM

 
Blogger Streak said...

Mom2, I will ask you the same question I posed on the other thread: are you angered or upset that Bush and Cheney have supported torture? Does that align with Christian beliefs?

And you can chastize me for pride if that makes you feel better. I think you are completely off base when you suggest that I worship the Democratic party--like I said earlier, I see more of that from the Republicans with Bush. More, I would reiterate Dan's point and suggest that much of what Bush has done to our country deserves some anger. Take the torture issue, don't you think it would be nice if we could stand up clearly when Iran captures British sailors and demand that they be treated well and given rights? How credible is that now that everyone in the world knows that our administration approves such techniques as waterboarding?

1:01 PM

 
Blogger Michael Westmoreland-White said...

Blogging didn't really exist when Clinton was prez., so it's completely unfair of Mom2 to ask if Dan Trabue was on a zillion sites telling people of his dislike for Clinton. However, I do know that Dan, like myself and others, called for Clinton to resign during Monica-gate. During the bombing of Kosovo, which violated the War Powers Act, I wrote an op-ed saying that NOW Clinton should be impeached but wouldn't because of the waste of time impeaching him for what was not a constitutional matter.

During the Clinton years I was so negative (usually from the Left, but on some matters from the Right) about Clinton that some folks thought I was Republican. I have said repeatedly in the Bush II years that many of the latter's worst actions and policies (economic, Iraq, suspension of civil liberties, etc.) were simply expansions of Clinton policies. (This is the real reason why Hillary won't apologize for her vote on Iraq and why she only criticizes the "conduct of the war." She's just as much of a hawk as Bush and wants permanent bases in Iraq.)
Even Bush's all-out assault on the environment was made easier by Bill Clinton doing nothing on the matter. ("I have Al Gore and they don't!" he said in '92 only to let Gore nowhere near environmental policy and to lower EPA enforcement 30%.)

There is plenty of consistency around, but Bush kiss-ups like Mom2 never see or hear anything that doesn't reinforce what they already believe.

1:32 PM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

mom2, you illustrate my point perfectly. If someone criticizes the hate-mongering of Republican "Christians," then those people whine that that they are being attacked. In doing so, they can then completely ignore the substance of the criticism and just go back to attacking everyone who doesn't agree with all of their hateful positions.

Talk about irrational hate, you need to address your feelings toward the Clintons. But I guess it's OK to hate them.

Your response to me was completely nonsensical, not to mention childish. But again, that is typical of the religious right these days.

PF

3:04 PM

 
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

C'mon gents. I know it's somewhat earned, but let's not gang up on mom2. She's brave enough to step into the lion's den here where she's outnumbered, let's not be too harsh on her.

5:04 PM

 
Blogger Streak said...

agreed.

5:22 PM

 
Blogger mom2 said...

Thanks Dan & streak, You restored my faith a bit. I do believe in miracles and how I would love to see some. For a few minutes, I thought I would just have to let you prove my point without me.

5:50 PM

 
Blogger Streak said...

Mom2, I have no desire to attack you. I simply want to know why my support for the democratic party is "worship" while your support for George Bush is somehow righteous?

I would also love to know your response to the torture issue. I heard from Jim, but have not heard from you on this.

6:35 PM

 
Blogger mom2 said...

streak, Where did you see anything expressing my support for George Bush. All I said about him, I would do for anyone that I thought was being treated badly. I have had that trait ever since I was a child. I hate to see people talked badly about and there has been some terribly harsh language tossed around about the President. I just happen to believe that the language used is unnecessary. That kind of stuff creates an atmosphere that is not good for our country. If we believe that God allows the appointment of our leaders, we are failing to honor Him when we fail to pray for them and lift them up to His throne for guidance and wisdom.

7:45 PM

 
Blogger Streak said...

Mom2, do you see any reason why so many of us have found this president lacking? The arrogance? The willingness to use fear as a weapon? The torture?

I think perhaps some of us are confused. You do appear to be quite critical of Clinton, but when we criticize Bush policies, you see us as hateful? As I recall, you said that a joke about James Dobson actually caring about the environment was hateful. Help me out, perhaps I am missing something.

7:55 PM

 
Blogger mom2 said...

I think perhaps some of us are confused. You do appear to be quite critical of Clinton, but when we criticize Bush policies, you see us as hateful? As I recall, you said that a joke about James Dobson actually caring about the environment was hateful. Help me out, perhaps I am missing something.>

I think you are reading between lines and coming up with more than I have ever written. I have been trying to stay away from the critical remarks and just let some of you folks hear how you are sounding and I think we can have our opinions without all the harsh rhetoric. It is the harshness of the rhetoric that gets me. A soft answer turns away wrath and we don't need anymore wrath in this world. I am not so young anymore and some of this comes with age, but I'm not sure how much time we have left to be learning some of these lessons that will honor God and keep Him in the state of patience with us. Without Him, nothing or no one can keep us safe. We His people have to humble ourselves and pray and seek His face, if we want Him to heal our land.

8:09 PM

 
Blogger Streak said...

So your problem with us is not the substance of our criticism, but the tone? If we criticized but did so nicely, you wouldn't mind?

8:12 PM

 
Blogger mom2 said...

It would certainly making the reading easier.
A debate does not have to be full of anger and hostility to be the most effective. When we can rouse so much anger within a small group, imagine what we are doing to the world and especially those that do not know the Lord and have no restraint from the Holy Spirit.

8:17 PM

 
Blogger Jim Paslay said...

Streak said:

"I'm a proud democrat."

Isn't that what you call an oxymoron? The party of Hubert Humphrey who used to stand for something. Now it is the party that has been captured by the Looney Left. Democrats are actually proud that they are the party of abortion, homosexuality, and tree huggers. This is the party that has given us great Americans like Michael Dukakis, Barney Frank, Ted Kennedy and Algore. Not!

President Bush has governed in a difficult time. Maybe if Bill Clinton hadn't been chasing White House interns, we would have never had 9/11. We are still reaping the effects of his disastrous eight years! And democrats love him so much they want his wife to be our next President. I just hope those White House interns have their chastity belts on!

I continue to battle with those who have no message and continue to attack the messenger. I am proud of our President and I continue to pray for him. I don't need a poll to tell me what is right and what is wrong. If you democrats want to keep reminding me of polls, then I guess you are ready to drop your obsession for same-sex marriage, opposition to partial-birth abortion and your hostility to religious expression in public. Otherwise, I don't want to hear about the polls. The liberal media has been pounding the same mantra and the polls reflect it. People hate President Bush but they can't tell you why.

One final thought, show me in Scripture the justification for your constant carping and distortion of the truth! How you can hate a man who has a personal relationship with Christ. Should you be protesting him or praying for him? Hmmmm!

8:50 PM

 
Blogger Big Daddy Weave said...

Why are you proud of President Bush?

I'm curious.

The guy spends and spends and spends. He has refused to take a hardline on illegal immigration. Most of his campaign promises were never realized.

And the War...

Can you honestly award Bush with any grade above an F for his handling of the war?

You claim to be a champion of religious liberty but you won't extend that same liberty to those of us who dare to protest the policies of the Bush Administration?? Bush is not our Pastor-in-Chief. He's our Commander-in-Chief. This is a Democracy, sir, and dissent is patriotic. How can you bash Clinton (a believer) and then pretend to take the high-road and demand that we spare Bush (a believer as well) of criticism? Be consistent.

Who is obsessed with same-sex marriage? And partial-birth abortion? Show some respect, Jim. Engage our arguments, don't make crap up.

9:20 PM

 
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

Jim P said:

"Now it is the party that has been captured by the Looney Left."

Mom2, can you understand our confusion by your position?

Statements like Jim P's above get stated and attacks are made by you upon some of us and that seems to be okay in your book, or at least Jim P doesn't get criticized by you nor do you criticize yourself nor even apologize when you've misrepresented our position (once we've pointed it out).

So it sure seems like to us that you're okay with criticism of those who disagree with you but not those you support. What gives? What guidelines do you have for criticism?

For the record, I'm okay with criticism. The prophets "criticized," Jesus gave the religious folk hell, Jesus ran those exploiting the poor out of the temple! There is a time for criticism and that time is usually found in the bible when oppression and injustice occurs - especially of the poor.

So THAT is why and when we criticize. What're your groundrules?

3:54 AM

 
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

Jim P said all manner of questionable stuff, such as:

"One final thought, show me in Scripture the justification for your constant carping and distortion of the truth!"

I just cited above the prophets and Jesus' example of criticism (or of being prophetic, as I'd take it). Is that what you're asking for? And what distortion of truth? The only distortion of truth I've seen here has come from those supporting Bush (or at least those opposed to those NOT supporting Bush).

Other than the jokes, what distortion of truth? Such as when you and mom2 both suggested that I supported Clinton. Why would you make such an assumption when you know nothing about me? And mom2 I know has read my repeated critiques of Clinton. How can that be anything but a misrepresentation of the truth?

I'm not attacking anyone here - that is an honest question.

jim p also said:
"How you can hate a man who has a personal relationship with Christ. Should you be protesting him or praying for him?"

1. Who says we hate Bush?
2. It would be ridiculous to make the assumption that just because someone names the name of Christ that we wouldn't protest when that leader took what we consider to be dangerous, oppressive or just wrong acts, wouldn't you agree?
3. Who says we're not praying for Bush? Protesting and prayer or not mutually exclusive.

As to jim p's claim that we have no message, what do you think Peacemaking IS if not a message? What do you think standing in opposition to terrorism and torture IS if not a message? Or do you mean that because our message disagrees with your position that we therefore don't have a message?

Again, I'm not attacking anyone here. These are honest questions that for the most part keep going unanswered.

4:02 AM

 
Blogger Streak said...

Mom2, I would reiterate Dan's question. Why do you praise Jim's response here and criticize ours? He just said, as a Christian, that those of us who care about the environment are "tree huggers" and then called democrats "loony." Is that the kind of rhetoric you want to see?

Jim,

How you can hate a man who has a personal relationship with Christ.

Beyond Bush saying that he has one, would you know? Has he governed with grace? Has he extended that grace to political adversaries or even the enemies of our nation?

I am not doubting the man's salvation. That is not up to me to doubt. But the Bible says something about knowing by their fruit. Bush's fruit has been a steady stream of incompetence. I don't hate the man personally. I don't know him. I feel bad for him on a regular basis because I believe he is in over his head. And I think he knows, or is starting to realize that his legacy is not going to be a good one.

I love Jim asking the question, however, because I am sure that he extends the same grace and acceptance to liberal Christians. Right? I am sure he defends Jimmy Carter and our most recent Southern Baptist President. Oops. Evidently he doesn't have a personal relationship with Christ? And is therefore worthy of hatred?

Jim, I do appreciate you giving us the talking points. I deleted Fox from my tv so rarely know what people like Hannity and others are saying.

5:50 AM

 
Blogger Jim Paslay said...

streak said:

"Jim, I do appreciate you giving us the talking points. I deleted Fox from my tv so rarely know what people like Hannity and others are saying."

The same could be said of you. I don't have to check out the DNC or MoveOn.org because I know you will be spouting their rhetoric.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I used to be a democrat until 1988 and decided I could not longer support a party that is out of step with my morals and values. I am a registered GOP, but no party owns my vote. I have voted for both republicans and democrats in the past. I have never voted for a party nor have a ever voted a straight ticket. The same cannot be said about democrats. We call them yellow-dogs around here. I call them imbeciles.

If you have deleted Fox News from your TV, then you are as closed minded as I thought you were. I even listen to Keith Olberwussie from time to time. I keep my Pepcid handy.

I can handle critcism of President
Bush quite well. We don't agree on everything and in fact I have written him on several occasions expressing my views to the contrary. But in your eyes he has done nothing right. That makes you a partison. President Bush promised to protect us as Commander-in-Chief and we have not had another attack since 9/11. He promised to appoint strict constructionists to the Supreme Court and he has. He promised to defend the unborn and he has. He promised tax relief and he came through. He and the First Lady have handled themselves with class and I am proud of them. They are a breath of fresh air compared to the former occupants of the White House.

9:34 AM

 
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

Jim p said:

But in your eyes he has done nothing right. That makes you a partison.

And:

I have never voted for a party nor have a ever voted a straight ticket. The same cannot be said about democrats.

You are using extremely dichotomic language Jim. That we oppose the Iraq War and that Bush has, in fact, dictated policy from the environment to pre-emptive invasions to energy that we disagree with does not mean that we are partisan. It means his policies are often against our belief system and ethical positions.

How does that mean that we are partisan? The fact that the Dems are also often against my values system - does that mean I'm partisan against the Dems, too? The fact that I regularly "praise" the Dems as Less Awful than the Republicans on policies that matter to me, does that make me a partisan?

Can we not express support consistent with our values system without being called names and demagogued over it? I thought part of the beef that many so-called Religious Right have with the morals today is that Christians are being silenced and ridiculed and yet, here you are - ridiculing us for our belief in Jesus and for acting in support of our values.

Is that really what you intend to do or is it just coming across that way?

9:48 AM

 
Blogger mom2 said...

Dan & streak, I am sure you have heard the expression "pot calling the kettle black". Would you go back and read a bunch, I mean a lot of your own posts? They don't pass the politeness test either. Do you just want us conservatives to go away and shut up, so you liberals can finish the job of complete moral degradation? It's not going to happen, I hope. Cheer up and count your blessings! They may not always be so in abundance.

10:43 AM

 
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

mom2, you're really going to have to help me out. I went back and found where I made a joke, but then nothing that comes across to me as mean-spirited or impolite from either Streak or myself.

If you'd just point me to where you think that is happening, I would have a much easier time of knowing what it is you're talking about.

For the most part, Streak and I have been asking questions and not getting answers. But asking questions is not an impolite-hood.

10:57 AM

 
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

There ARE a couple of jokes that we made, but nothing so cruel as "so you liberals can finish the job of complete moral degradation?"

Again, we ask: What guidelines do you have on attacks? What constitutes an attack? Why is your unfounded suggestion that we desire complete moral degradation acceptable but us saying that torture is wrong not acceptable?

Honestly, we don't understand where you're coming from. It is truly a bafflement to at least me what you're basing your opinions upon.

11:00 AM

 
Blogger mom2 said...

I'm no more baffling than "your jokes". Call them that if you want, you know what you are doing and I call it deception, either of yourself of trying it in hopes of it being the other person. There is no end with you Dan because you want to be the last word on at least 2 subjects that I know of and I believe you will learn one day that you do not have the last word.

11:20 AM

 
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

mom2, I still have no idea what you're talking about. Who's practicing deception? Point to a place where we are deceiving and say, "HERE. This is what I'm talking about." And speak slowly because some of us just ain't so smart.

What I'm inclined to think by these repeated (often quite mean-spirited) accusations of general wrongdoing, lying, deception, etc but refusal to point to any specifics is that we have a case of cognitive dissonance.

That is, you hear someone say they are genuine Christ-lovin' born again Christians who think Bush's Iraq invasion was horribly wrong and, because in some people's minds, no true Christian would ever oppose Bush's war invasion, then the only answer must be, the person(s) who are accusing Bush of being horribly wrong must be Bush-hating, Democrat-loving traitors who want to see terrorists win.

Or, when those of us who love God stand against economic systems that we believe to be oppressive. For the True Believer in the Godliness of capitalism that doesn't compute. How could any version of capitalism be wrong?

And so, for those true believers, the people condemning capitalism must be godless socialists who want to take away everyone's property and have the state ruled by an iron-fisted dictator. It's the only thing that makes sense.

To them.

mom2, THAT is what conclusion I'm coming to. When we are repeatedly accused by seemingly otherwise reasonable people of being godless, bible-hating, US-betraying hedonists and liars EVEN THOUGH we've never advocated ANY of the above, it seems that there's something weird going on.

Cognitive dissonance is my guess.

12:00 PM

 
Blogger Streak said...

Mom2, Jim just called democrats "imbeciles," and you said this: Do you just want us conservatives to go away and shut up, so you liberals can finish the job of complete moral degradation?

So I am either an imbecile or working on undermining the moral fiber of this country--purposefully, it seems.

I really tried to be nice to you, and I have asked Jim questions he refuses to answer--except to suggest that our moral actions must be measured against what the terrorists do. You have attacked everyone here for their bad manners--well, except Jim or, as I believe Dan noted, yourself. Evidently badmouthing liberals is ok, but badmouthing the President is bad. I get it. As Jim said, he has a personal relationship with Christ and therefore is off limits.

Now, lets get back to calling democrats "imbeciles" and badmouthing the Clintons.

12:22 PM

 
Blogger Streak said...

Oh, and Jim "Keith Olberwussie," seriously? But I am close minded? Oh, I get it, you can badmouth him, but the rest of us can't even joke that Al Mohler may be short a few synapses. Or you can disparage his manhood because he is, I am guessing, against the war?

I am really joking. I occassionaly watch Fox. I saw Bill O'Reilly silence a 23 year veteran of the military because she disagreed with his assertion that she now "disliked her country." All, I might add, because she was defending the Geneva conventions.

12:33 PM

 
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

....the sound of crickets chirping and sincere questions going unanswered...

5:20 PM

 
Blogger Jim Paslay said...

streak,

You need to read my posts more carefully. I did not call all democrats imbeciles.

Jim said:

"I have never voted for a party nor have a ever voted a straight ticket. The same cannot be said about democrats. We call them yellow-dogs around here. I call them imbeciles."

I was referring to democrats who vote for the party. Here in Oklahoma we call it stamping the rooster. They are yellow-dog democrats because they say they would rather vote for a yellow dog than a republican. I called them imbeciles because even an imbecile can do that.

If you are going to accuse me of something, at least get it right.

streak:

I'm not sure what questions you want answered. You seemed to answer them after you asked them. I will not cut much slack to those I consider to be partisan. If you tell me how dumb Bush is, you are telling me that you already have your mind made up. Personal attacks are so childish and petty. I hear alot of that from the Looney Left. Keith Olberwussie is a partisan who thinks he is really something when he is nothing. Everytime I have turned him on,, he is on one of his rants about the Bush Administration. He actually thinks the Clinton Administratio was more ethical than the Bush Administration. Looney bird!

dan:

Today is Wednesday and I have responsibilities at my church. I can't always answer your earth-shattering questions all the time. I have no problem with our President leading us into Iraq or Afganistan. He did so on the best intelligence at the time. It is the terrorists and insurgents that are killing all the innocent people. The U.S. military has done well except for a few bad apples. War is hell and there is no sugar coating it. But to sit here in America hoping that terrorists will stay in Iraq or Afganistan is kooky! The Islamofacists are out to destroy our country and they will go to any extremes to accomplish their mission. This is a clash of worldviews.

I know you will find fault in most of what I said but that is okay. I didn't come to this blog expecting to change minds.

By the way, big daddy weave, I appreciate you not censoring your blogsite. Your buddy, Bruce Prescott, won't allow me to post all the time so I came here and I appreciate the free expression of ideas!

6:55 PM

 
Blogger Streak said...

Jim,

You said this: Personal attacks are so childish and petty. I hear alot of that from the Looney Left. Keith Olberwussie is a partisan

You a fan of irony there, Jim? You recognize that you love to disparage people at the same time you criticize "personal attacks?"

You are not an honest broker. Don't expect me to dialogue with you honestly, because you have no desire. You continuously mischaracterize my and other posts and continue to disparage all of us.

7:13 PM

 
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

Dang, streak. You beat me to it. Surely he purposely was shooting for irony, don't you think? Had to be.

Jim, I'm not criticizing you personally for not answering some specific questions. I'm criticizing the sorts of so-called conservatives that I deal with all the time who will lob a charge or several charges at someone they disagree with (often with a good deal of name-calling involved) and, when they're called on it, they either ignore the correction and go on and lob another charge or they say, "If you don't like it, go away." or something similar.

If I accuse someone of misrepresenting the truth, I say "You stated that I hate America, when in fact, I don't." In so doing, I point out what they said and why it was wrong.

When that happens, a reasonable person in a face to face conversation would expect, "Oh, I misunderstood. When you said you were opposed to the war, I assumed you did so because you support terrorists. I'm sorry. I was mistaken." Or something like that.

Instead, another charge is lobbed and the original lie is ignored. "Why, you aren't a Christian. How could a Christian NOT support a Christian president?!!"

This is not a reasonable discussion.

7:28 PM

 
Blogger mom2 said...

Dan, You get answers but if they do not suit you, you ask a different question and you and streak make a conversation difficult. I am quite a lot older than Jim, but old enough and more to be your mother and I am not just picking on you, but Jim's comments are easier to understand and more to the point. You have been told this before, you talk in circles.
You get a lot of comments back to you by different people and you throw them all in one pile and accuse all conservatives of having all the views......not so....to each his own, but just not to your liking. Settle down and think about each one instead of getting hyper and bent out of shape.

8:23 PM

 
Blogger Jim Paslay said...

streak and dan,

I have attempted to dialogue with you on our obvious differences. This post started with obvious snide remarks from both of you about Dr. James Dobson, Dr. Mohler and President Bush. I didn't start the name calling, you did!

Then I proceeded to call out the democratic party and you got your feelings hurt. I can prove to you that the national Democratic Party has been captured by the Looney Left in this country. But all you hear is Jim's calling us names.

I admit I get passionate about certain things. I have had my fill of the Bush-bashing crowd. If you are not one of them, then point out to me where he has done a good job since becoming President. If you say he hasn't done anything good, then you are a partisan. Period!

If you are offended by my comments about Keith Olberwussie, then I can only plead guilty on that one. He will not be cut any slack from me. Find me some balance on his show and I might rethink my position.

By the way, find my comments where I stated that either one of you hate America. I will apologize!

8:59 PM

 
Blogger Dan Trabue said...

You may not have said that we hate America. But others have. You have said plenty of other things, including referring to those who "have no message," suggested that we were partisan, that we probably "gave a pass" to Clinton for his foibles, suggested that our "carping" was unbiblical, etc.

"If you say he hasn't done anything good, then you are a partisan. Period!"

Bush has a good sense of self-effacing humor.

Beyond that, he has probably done some things that I don't disapprove of. BUT, most of his major policies of which I'm aware have been in opposition to my values system. Not that I simply disagree with his policies (like, "We should drive on the Left side of the road," "No. We should drive on the right!" - not that sort of Mere disagreement), but I think they're immoral, unjust or plain wrong.

1. When he came to office, he hired at least two convicted felons (Abrams and Poindexter - convicted of lying to Congress to hide war crime activity in the Iran Contra mess), saying right off the bat that he believes lying about war crimes is okay - that's against my values.
2. When he came to office, one of the first things they did was allow our energy policy to be written with great influence from the petroleum giants. His subsequent policies on energy matters have been against my values system.
3. His decision to invade Iraq is, in the opinion of the great majority of the world, making us LESS not more secure. This is against common sense.
4. His decision to invade Iraq seems to me to quite possibly have involved war crimes. This is against my values system.

And so on.

I already said (another point that went unaddressed), the fact that his policies conflict with my values system does not make me a partisan, no matter how many times you make that statement.

Hitler, Saddam, Clinton and Truman also made many policy decisions that are against my values system. That does not make me a partisan.

The fact is, I oppose a good deal of what the Republican party has come to stand for (and I used to be a Republican - until Reagan's crimes drove me from the party). I also oppose a good bit of what the Dems stand for in reality - although at least some times their words are better than their actions.

Doesn't make me a partisan. It makes me someone with values in opposition to a majority of our leaders.

Or would you have me be quiet in the face of what I consider to be great injustices and evil?

3:24 AM

 
Blogger Streak said...

Mom2, unfortunately, you simply reinforce your own bias here--Jim can say whatever he wants and you will not chastize him. He even admits that he gets passionate, but for you it is the rest of us who are the problem. Like I said to you, I tried to be nice and respectful, but you really haven't even tried to be even handed. That is your right, but I wish you would stop disparaging those of us on the left.

Jim, my feelings are fine and I don't care if you think Olbermann is balanced or not. (I don't think he claims to be balanced--after all, he isn't on Fox and doesn't pretend to have a "spin free zone" or be "fair and balanced.") I was simply pointing out that it is inconsistent for you to say that name calling is childish AS you call people names. Take that for what you like.

I also don't care if you decide I am a partisan. I certainly didn't used to be one. I have voted for Republicans before. You say that the Democratic party has been taken over by the "loony left" (and you say you have proof--reminds me of another conservative with proof of disloyalty, but that is another matter) and I will even concede that there are people on the left that you could characterize as "loony." But they aren't in charge. The reason I have become partisan is that the Republican party has placed its most extreme ideologues in power.

I have become partisan because the Republican party seems to think that torture is ok, and holding even American citizens as "enemy combatants" is a good option. (I suspect that Hilary will like that option too, which is why I am not a supporter of hers--oops that might betray something other than partisan-ness.)

You listed things he has done well--not sure you can prove that he has stopped an attack, but I understand the point. I don't think he has done anything meaningful on abortion except to push abstinence only and perhaps contribute to more unintended pregnancies. His SCOTUS appointments have made conservatives happy, but I suspect that Alito will be a disaster. I also suspect that conservatives will ultimately not be happy with Roberts because I think he is, while very conservative, a very smart and capable justice and will turn out to be more even handed and fair than people wanted.

That is the only thing I have seen positive out of Bush--John Roberts. I have seen him undermine our political dialogue, undermine the ability of our government to actually function by politicizing every level he could and packing important positions with loyalists. Remember, under his administration, the reconstruction team in Iraq was quizzing potential employees on their loyalty to Bush and their thoughts on Roe--not on their ability to perhaps rebuild Iraqi society.

I teach American history as well, and the vast majority of American historians already have Bush at the bottom of the scale for presidents. The vast majority see him as someone who squandered the good will after 9-11 and has purposefully sought to divide the country rather than pull it together. I think if you read more about Karl Rove's methodology, that conclusion is hard to avoid.

Enough for now.

6:54 AM

 
Anonymous Anonymous said...

warning
This is a very important message about an Islamic terroristic grand Attack.

کیر بزمجه عربستان و مصر تو کس ننه هرکی سیده.
سنده ملت جهان تو کس ننه حافظان شریعت اسلام

کیر خوک تو کس ننه فاحشه => پاسدار یا بسیجی یا اطلاعاتی یا جاسوس اسلام یا سید یا حزب اللهی

گوه خوک تو ننه امام حسین شد امام حسن

سنده شیطان تو حلق محمد رسول الله قرآن شد.

خرطوم فیل تو کس ننه پیامبر اسلام.

الله اکبر
خامنه ای عنتر
مرگ بر دوست ولایت فقیه
درود بر آمریکا

12:44 AM

 

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